CNN

SHOW: CNN CROSSFIRE 19:00

February 25, 2003 Tuesday

Transcript # 022500CN.V20

SECTION: News; Domestic

LENGTH: 7797 words

HEADLINE: Debate Over Boycotting French Products; Interviews With Authors Allison Pearson, Gore Vidal

GUESTS: Gore Vidal, David Bossie, Justin Vaisse, Allison Pearson

BYLINE: James Carville, Tucker Carlson

[...]

CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We're coming to you live from the George Washington University here in downtown Washington.

As ambassadors get paid to do, the U.S. ambassador to France today tried to smooth over differences between our two countries saying, "I think Americans like the French a lot." When the crowd stopped laughing, Ambassador Howard Leach went on to dismiss the possibility of a U.S. boycott of French products, like cheese and wine and mineral water, quoting again, "It's an emotional isolated reaction."

Here to add to this emotion are Justin Vaisse of the Brookings Institution and Dave Bossie, president of Citizens United.

(APPLAUSE)

CARVILLE: In governance to Mr. Bossie's boycott, would you dim those German lights right now? Because we don't want them shining on him. These lights were made in Germany, so we'll dim them temporarily. Thank you.

(LAUGHTER)

CARVILLE: Mr. Bossy, I want to show you something that appeared in "The Washington Post" here and I want to get your opinion on this.

DAVID BOSSIE, CITIZENS UNITED: Sure.

CARVILLE: According to oil industry executives and confidential United States records, Halliburton held stakes in two firms that signed contracts to sell more than $73 million in oil production equipment and spare parts to Iraq while Cheney was chairman and chief executive officer of the Dallas-based company. Two former senior executives of Halliburton subsidiaries say that, as far as they knew, there was no policy against doing business with Iraq."

Now why in the hell can't I drink a glass of French wine and Dick Cheney can make $73 million in dealing with Iraq?

(APPLAUSE)

CARVILLE: How does that make sense?

BOSSIE: I don't really thank has anything to do with our boycott.

CARVILLE: It doesn't? So, wait, we're supposed to be -- we have a national boycott in place against Iraq. They circumvent it and do $73 million worth of business, and you're telling me I'm a bad American because I drink French wine?

BOSSIE: No. What we're saying is this is a coalition of the willing, James, and obviously, you're not one of the willing. But what we're saying is the Americans can speak and tell the leaders of France and Germany that actions have consequences. What they are doing -- what they are doing -- can you agree with me just for a second? Agree with me, Saddam Hussein is a brutal dictator who murders his own people, correct?

CARVILLE: I wouldn't do business -- I wouldn't buy Iraqi -- I wouldn't do $73 million worth -- would you do $73 million worth, as Dick Cheney did?

(CROSSTALK)

BOSSIE: James, is he a brutal dictator?

CARVILLE: I think he is a brutal dictator. I will not drink Iraqi wine.

BOSSIE: Then the French and the Germans...

JUSTIN VAISSE, BROOKINS INSTITUTION: I agree.

BOSSIE: The French and the Germans are the only ones between us and the Iraqi people being liberated.

CARLSON: But you know, Justin, actually, that's an interesting point. Wait...

VAISSE: So 30 percent of the American people and, you know, (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

CARLSON: Yes, but here's the problem. France has done $3.1 billion in trade with Iraq since 1996. It's the single largest trading partner for weapons. There is a lot of evidence that France has sold...

VAISSE: For weapons?

CARLSON: That's exactly right. That France has sold chemical and biological weapons components, and we know for certain that France has sold nuclear weapons components. Why should I as an American consumer help to prop up a regime like that of Jacques Chirac with my money, when it's spending that money helping Saddam Hussein?

(APPLAUSE)

VAISSE: The problem with that -- the problem is that you don't quite understand the world that we are living in. We are living in a globalize world.

BOSSIE: We are under attack every day.

VAISSE: And you actually are going with this boycott to American importers, American shareholders, and American jobs, because the reality is that, when you do a boycott, a small boycott like that, you are going to hurt the people that do trade with France here. And they're going to be hurt much more than France. Let me tell you...

CARLSON: But isn't there a moral component? People boycotted South Africa because what South Africa was doing was wrong. So what France is doing is wrong. Why isn't it morally just a boycott terrier (ph), or whatever it is?

VAISSE: You know, for example, last time -- you remember last time I was on the show you showed me a nice bottle of (UNINTELLIGIBLE) saying we were going to boycott that. Well the problem is, that belongs to the Coca-Cola company.

CARLSON: Right. That's why we went to Perrier instead, exactly.

(APPLAUSE)

VAISSE: Right. So that's a very good example...

CARVILLE: This is a German -- my wife gave me this, a (UNINTELLIGIBLE). It's considered by some people to be the finest brand of watches made in the world. Should I throw this damn thing away? It's a pretty expensive watch, I got to tell you.

BOSSIE: I don't think so. I'm not going to throw my German automobile away that I'd sell, but that's there's a for sale sign out on it if you're interested in a Volkswagen.

CARVILLE: OK. What about people in South Carolina? There's a BMW plant in South Carolina. There's a Mercedes plant in Alabama. Look, should these people go to work or should they strike? I mean what are you saying? You don't want me to buy a German watch? Are these bad Americans that are working these plants and feeding their families?

BOSSIE: What we're saying is that this coalition of the willing, people who are interested in making the Germans and the French understand what we're saying, which is enough is enough. You're standing in the way of the Iraqi people being liberated.

CARVILLE: So these auto workers in South Carolina and Alabama are bad Americans.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: James, let the guy answer the question, please.

BOSSIE: You know what, James? The guys who are the hard workers in Alabama and Georgia and South Carolina, what they are...

(CROSSTALK)

BOSSIE: You know what? Because they guys who are in the National Guard and in the Reserves, they're all overseas.

CARVILLE: I don't need a speech. I've been in the Marine Corps. Answer the question.

BOSSIE: And that gives you the credibility to speak on this? Give me a break.

CARVILLE: I'm asking you, are these bad Americans that work at the BMW plant in South Carolina and work at the Mercedes plant in Alabama?

CARLSON: Of course not.

BOSSIE: It's silly what you're even...

CARVILLE: Well I'm not silly. Well you're talking about a boycott.

BOSSIE: That's exactly right.

CARVILLE: If you watch "Schindler's List" you're a bad American? It's owned by a French company.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: I want to ask Justin, who is a verified French person, this question. You've heard this debate about boycotting Germany. That's sort of a big deal. I mean there are German car plants in this country. But when you think about boycotting France, what does the -- French products -- that means we're not buying Le Coq Sportif, not drinking Perrier.

It sort of says a lot about the weakened condition of France that a boycott of French products would affect really just wine drinkers and people who wear Le Coq Sportif, whatever that is.

VAISSE: Yes. I think the big problem with the boycott is that you -- you know if Mr. Bossie and a couple of American people want to symbolically deny themselves French cheese that's fine, but I don't think it's going to have a big impact on Chirac. Actually, I think he couldn't care less.

CARLSON: Because France is no longer an economic power.

BOSSIE: Neither did the government of South Africa, the government of Cuba. And let me tell you...

VAISSE: Oh, Cuba is a very good example.

BOSSIE: We've been boycotting them since JFK.

CARVILLE: Mr. Bossie has attacked autoworkers in South Carolina and Alabama.

CARLSON: Oh, come on.

CARVILLE: Of course you are. Don't say come on. These are bad Americans, according to you people. According to the patriot correct police, if you buy a German car or drink French wine you're a bad American.

Now this is a bottle of French wine. Not a very good one. I could actually boycott this one this. This is not even a crous bourjois (ph). But say like a nice (UNINTELLIGIBLE), which I like. A (UNINTELLIGIBLE)? Am I saying it right?

VAISSE: Yes. And the problem is that if you begin to drink Estonian wine, you're going to have terrible hangovers.

(LAUGHTER)

CARVILLE: Dave, I want to give you a chance. Dave, we'll give you a chance to apologize to hardworking people in Alabama.

BOSSIE: I thought we were going to have a serious conversation, a serious debate.

(CROSSTALK)

BOSSIE: You just want to yell and scream at me and that's fine.

CARVILLE: I'll scream at you any time I want to, boy.

CARLSON: Dave Bossie, tell us, why should Americans boycott French products?

CARVILLE: Let this guy defend himself.

CARLSON: Why should they boycott French products?

BOSSIE: It's very simple. We have been saying -- and I said it earlier in the show -- this is simply to make the governments of France and Germany understand that they are the only ones standing in between the liberation of the Iraqi people and Saddam Hussein's brutal dictatorship. What we are saying is this is an easy opportunity for the Americans to speak with their wallets and just simply not buy French products.

CARLSON: OK.

CARVILLE: Well you're a good guy from South Carolina...

CARLSON: Unfortunately, we are out of time.

CARVILLE: Feed your family and take care of them.

CARLSON: Dave Bossie, I'm sorry, we're out of time. Good luck with your boycott. Justin, good luck. I guess you're not doing a boycott. You should, though.

Thank you for joining us. We appreciate it.

VAISSE: Thanks.